Discussions on the ML (was: Upgraded to Owncloud 5...)

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Discussions on the ML (was: Upgraded to Owncloud 5...)

Diederik de Haas
On Thursday 21 March 2013 11:44:54 Frank Karlitschek wrote:

> The next thing we need is to really understand what exactly is triggering
> the problem in your setup.
>
> So if you want to help us then please provide us with detailed information
> how your server setup looks like, which software your use, OS,DB,
> client/server, ...
>
> Can you please provide us step by step description what you can do to
> trigger this problem staring for a vanilla ownCloud server. I don't think
> currently developers knows where this problem is.

I completely agree with this.

Which is why I find it rather strange that lately a lot of times the (only)
response someone is getting to a question they ask on this ML is:
"Please file an issue on github"

When the cause of the issue is known, the way to trigger it is known and a way
to reproduce it is known ... then it would be really useful if an issue was filed
describing the problem and the steps to reproduce it.

But when someone describes a problem and/or strange thing they see on their OC
server and concludes that with "Is someone else seeing this?" then you can be
pretty sure he/she doesn't have the above mentioned information ready to file a
proper bug report.
Instead he/she is trying to figure out what's causing the issue by asking the
community/ML whether someone else is experiencing that as well so they can
compare 'notes' (OS, DB used, config, browser, etc) and then determine the cause
of the issue and hopefully steps to reproduce it reliably.

But when someone describes such a 'strange thing' and get 'buzzed off' by a reply
like "Please file an issue on github", then there will probably be only losers.
1. Developers because they get 'useless' bug reports and the list of open issues
just keeps rising and rising ...
2. Users because their 'useless' bug report isn't getting a reaction, let alone
a fix and the 'solution' to their ML-question is "Please file an issue on github"
so no use in trying again, either asking the ML or filing an issue on github....

That way everybody looses.


My 0.02
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Re: Discussions on the ML (was: Upgraded to Owncloud 5...)

Bernhard Posselt
The thing youre describing is actually not a problem, we ask people to
provide logs etc on github and if we dont have enough information or
cant reproduce it over a longer period we close the issue anyways.
Asking for bugs on the mailing lists kinda spams my inbox and keeps me
from fixing problems.

On 03/21/2013 01:36 PM, Diederik de Haas wrote:

> On Thursday 21 March 2013 11:44:54 Frank Karlitschek wrote:
>> The next thing we need is to really understand what exactly is triggering
>> the problem in your setup.
>>
>> So if you want to help us then please provide us with detailed information
>> how your server setup looks like, which software your use, OS,DB,
>> client/server, ...
>>
>> Can you please provide us step by step description what you can do to
>> trigger this problem staring for a vanilla ownCloud server. I don't think
>> currently developers knows where this problem is.
> I completely agree with this.
>
> Which is why I find it rather strange that lately a lot of times the (only)
> response someone is getting to a question they ask on this ML is:
> "Please file an issue on github"
>
> When the cause of the issue is known, the way to trigger it is known and a way
> to reproduce it is known ... then it would be really useful if an issue was filed
> describing the problem and the steps to reproduce it.
>
> But when someone describes a problem and/or strange thing they see on their OC
> server and concludes that with "Is someone else seeing this?" then you can be
> pretty sure he/she doesn't have the above mentioned information ready to file a
> proper bug report.
> Instead he/she is trying to figure out what's causing the issue by asking the
> community/ML whether someone else is experiencing that as well so they can
> compare 'notes' (OS, DB used, config, browser, etc) and then determine the cause
> of the issue and hopefully steps to reproduce it reliably.
>
> But when someone describes such a 'strange thing' and get 'buzzed off' by a reply
> like "Please file an issue on github", then there will probably be only losers.
> 1. Developers because they get 'useless' bug reports and the list of open issues
> just keeps rising and rising ...
> 2. Users because their 'useless' bug report isn't getting a reaction, let alone
> a fix and the 'solution' to their ML-question is "Please file an issue on github"
> so no use in trying again, either asking the ML or filing an issue on github....
>
> That way everybody looses.
>
>
> My 0.02
> _______________________________________________
> Owncloud mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud

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Re: Discussions on the ML (was: Upgraded to Owncloud 5...)

Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
In reply to this post by Diederik de Haas
Hey Diederik


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Diederik de Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Which is why I find it rather strange that lately a lot of times the (only)
response someone is getting to a question they ask on this ML is:
"Please file an issue on github"

That’s because we use Github for issue tracking. Problems should be reported there, not posted here to the mailing list. It’s very simple, but we often see issues reported here so we just keep it very brief in saying »please report this on Github«.

So in short: If you have an issue, don’t send it to this mailing list, but look if that issue is already reported on Github. If yes, confirm it and provide more info. If not, open a new one with info on your setup, version, browser, and ideally some error logs.

Thanks!

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Re: Discussions on the ML

Tornóci László
In reply to this post by Bernhard Posselt
On 03/21/2013 01:42 PM, Bernhard Posselt wrote:
> The thing youre describing is actually not a problem, we ask people to
> provide logs etc on github and if we dont have enough information or
> cant reproduce it over a longer period we close the issue anyways.
> Asking for bugs on the mailing lists kinda spams my inbox and keeps me
> from fixing problems.

If I am confident enough that I have discovered a bug, then I file a bug
report on github. But I am not always sure, if that is a bug, so yes, it
makes sense to discuss it here and get feedback from other users.
It happened to me already that I filed a bug on github, and as it turned
out the problem was that the cache in my browser was not cleared, and I
had javascript functions from the pre-upgrade version after an upgrade.
I felt silly to use the time of a developer unnecessarily. (Although I
learned from the experience).

                                        Yours: Laszlo

>
> On 03/21/2013 01:36 PM, Diederik de Haas wrote:
>> On Thursday 21 March 2013 11:44:54 Frank Karlitschek wrote:
>>> The next thing we need is to really understand what exactly is
>>> triggering
>>> the problem in your setup.
>>>
>>> So if you want to help us then please provide us with detailed
>>> information
>>> how your server setup looks like, which software your use, OS,DB,
>>> client/server, ...
>>>
>>> Can you please provide us step by step description what you can do to
>>> trigger this problem staring for a vanilla ownCloud server. I don't
>>> think
>>> currently developers knows where this problem is.
>> I completely agree with this.
>>
>> Which is why I find it rather strange that lately a lot of times the
>> (only)
>> response someone is getting to a question they ask on this ML is:
>> "Please file an issue on github"
>>
>> When the cause of the issue is known, the way to trigger it is known
>> and a way
>> to reproduce it is known ... then it would be really useful if an
>> issue was filed
>> describing the problem and the steps to reproduce it.
>>
>> But when someone describes a problem and/or strange thing they see on
>> their OC
>> server and concludes that with "Is someone else seeing this?" then you
>> can be
>> pretty sure he/she doesn't have the above mentioned information ready
>> to file a
>> proper bug report.
>> Instead he/she is trying to figure out what's causing the issue by
>> asking the
>> community/ML whether someone else is experiencing that as well so they
>> can
>> compare 'notes' (OS, DB used, config, browser, etc) and then determine
>> the cause
>> of the issue and hopefully steps to reproduce it reliably.
>>
>> But when someone describes such a 'strange thing' and get 'buzzed off'
>> by a reply
>> like "Please file an issue on github", then there will probably be
>> only losers.
>> 1. Developers because they get 'useless' bug reports and the list of
>> open issues
>> just keeps rising and rising ...
>> 2. Users because their 'useless' bug report isn't getting a reaction,
>> let alone
>> a fix and the 'solution' to their ML-question is "Please file an issue
>> on github"
>> so no use in trying again, either asking the ML or filing an issue on
>> github....
>>
>> That way everybody looses.
>>
>>
>> My 0.02
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owncloud mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owncloud mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud

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Re: Discussions on the ML

Chris Green
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 01:55:35PM +0100, Tornóci László wrote:

> On 03/21/2013 01:42 PM, Bernhard Posselt wrote:
> >The thing youre describing is actually not a problem, we ask people to
> >provide logs etc on github and if we dont have enough information or
> >cant reproduce it over a longer period we close the issue anyways.
> >Asking for bugs on the mailing lists kinda spams my inbox and keeps me
> >from fixing problems.
>
> If I am confident enough that I have discovered a bug, then I file a
> bug report on github. But I am not always sure, if that is a bug, so
> yes, it makes sense to discuss it here and get feedback from other
> users.

Yes, I agree.  As a relatively new (i.e. naive) user of OwnCloud it may
well be that 'problems' I encounter are simply because I have
misunderstood or misconfigured something.


> It happened to me already that I filed a bug on github, and as it
> turned out the problem was that the cache in my browser was not
> cleared, and I had javascript functions from the pre-upgrade version
> after an upgrade. I felt silly to use the time of a developer
> unnecessarily. (Although I learned from the experience).
>
That one has caught me out too.

--
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Re: Discussions on the ML

Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
Tornóci, Chris,

don’t worry about feeling stupid. File all issues you have on Github, even if you might think it’s not an issue. Other users will/should give their feedback over there also. It’s not just for developers.

This mailing list is for other general discussions. We don’t want to have issue discussions in 2 places because most of the time the issue is already reported on Github.

So don’t worry. If you misunderstood or misconfigured something we’ll also track that down in the issue on Github. Maybe other people had that problem too and we need to update the documentation.

Is that ok?





On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Chris Green <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 01:55:35PM +0100, Tornóci László wrote:
> On 03/21/2013 01:42 PM, Bernhard Posselt wrote:
> >The thing youre describing is actually not a problem, we ask people to
> >provide logs etc on github and if we dont have enough information or
> >cant reproduce it over a longer period we close the issue anyways.
> >Asking for bugs on the mailing lists kinda spams my inbox and keeps me
> >from fixing problems.
>
> If I am confident enough that I have discovered a bug, then I file a
> bug report on github. But I am not always sure, if that is a bug, so
> yes, it makes sense to discuss it here and get feedback from other
> users.

Yes, I agree.  As a relatively new (i.e. naive) user of OwnCloud it may
well be that 'problems' I encounter are simply because I have
misunderstood or misconfigured something.


> It happened to me already that I filed a bug on github, and as it
> turned out the problem was that the cache in my browser was not
> cleared, and I had javascript functions from the pre-upgrade version
> after an upgrade. I felt silly to use the time of a developer
> unnecessarily. (Although I learned from the experience).
>
That one has caught me out too.

--
Chris Green
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Re: Discussions on the ML

Chris Green
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 02:52:44PM +0100, Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote:

>    Tornoci, Chris,
>
>    don*t worry about feeling stupid. File all issues you have on Github, even
>    if you might think it*s not an issue. Other users will/should give their
>    feedback over there also. It*s not just for developers.
>
>    This mailing list is for other general discussions. We don*t want to have
>    issue discussions in 2 places because most of the time the issue is
>    already reported on Github.
>
>    So don*t worry. If you misunderstood or misconfigured something we*ll also
>    track that down in the issue on Github. Maybe other people had that
>    problem too and we need to update the documentation.
>
>    Is that ok?
>
Well, yes, sort of.  But given that what *can* one discuss on this list?

--
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Re: Discussions on the ML

Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
Looking quickly through the latest posts (I still have in my mail client), these are examples of discussions which belong here:
Developers handbook, Name of app repositories, Whatsapp like application, About Bootstrap and ownCloud, Google Summer of Code stuff, this thread, Apps-Review process, Call for Maintainers, Need help triaging bugs, Release Parties, Improving ownCloud JS theming/templating, Looking for a new feedreader?, etc etc.

Lots of general organization stuff here which is not related to issues or feature requests. Those belong on Github as we said.



On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Chris Green <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 02:52:44PM +0100, Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote:
>    Tornoci, Chris,
>
>    don*t worry about feeling stupid. File all issues you have on Github, even
>    if you might think it*s not an issue. Other users will/should give their
>    feedback over there also. It*s not just for developers.
>
>    This mailing list is for other general discussions. We don*t want to have
>    issue discussions in 2 places because most of the time the issue is
>    already reported on Github.
>
>    So don*t worry. If you misunderstood or misconfigured something we*ll also
>    track that down in the issue on Github. Maybe other people had that
>    problem too and we need to update the documentation.
>
>    Is that ok?
>
Well, yes, sort of.  But given that what *can* one discuss on this list?

--
Chris Green
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Re: Discussions on the ML

Thomas Gries
In reply to this post by Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
Am 21.03.2013 14:52, schrieb Jan-Christoph Borchardt:
> Tornóci, Chris, [added: Tom],
>
> don’t worry about feeling stupid. File all issues you have on Github,
> even if you might think it’s not an issue. Other users will/should
> give their feedback over there also. It’s not just for developers.
+1
Thank you for this clear statement.
T.
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Re: Discussions on the ML

Thomas Tanghus
In reply to this post by Chris Green
On Thursday 21 March 2013 13:06:53 Chris Green wrote:
> > It happened to me already that I filed a bug on github, and as it
> > turned out the problem was that the cache in my browser was not
> > cleared, and I had javascript functions from the pre-upgrade version
> > after an upgrade. I felt silly to use the time of a developer
> > unnecessarily. (Although I learned from the experience).
>
> That one has caught me out too.

That particular (browser cache) issue should hopefully be solved :)
It was a major PITA both for users and bug triagers.
--
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Re: Discussions on the ML

Diederik de Haas
In reply to this post by Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
On Thursday 21 March 2013 14:59:45 Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote:
> Looking quickly through the latest posts (I still have in my mail client),
> these are examples of discussions which belong here: ...

Thanks for that clear answer, even though it also means this ML is not
interesting for me (any more).
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Re: Discussions on the ML

Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
In reply to this post by Thomas Gries
Cheers!

So yes, every issue you encounter is probably an issue we either can help you resolve or need to fix somewhere (in the code, interface or docs). But also, developers might be flooded with issues and just respond very shortly, or maybe make a snarky remark because they think it’s funny, or maybe just have a bad day. We’re just people.

Please don’t get discouraged when this happens, or think that we hate you. We don’t, and if you supply all the info we need in the issue then it can be very helpful and we’re happy because that makes it easier to fix the issue. And then everyone’s happy. :)

And if you want to be extra awesome, get your hands dirty yourself and try to fix the issue by improving the code. Then issue a pull reuqest. We’ll then review that, give you feedback how you can improve your code, then eventually pull it in and love you for your help.


It’s very simple, the main problem is that we need to communicate clearly and everyone be civilized about it. You probably all know that text communication on the internet leads to people being more mean than when communicating face-to-face, but let’s please try to stay friendly and factual anyway.

Thanks!



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Re: Discussions on the ML

Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
In reply to this post by Diederik de Haas
On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Diederik de Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for that clear answer, even though it also means this ML is not
interesting for me (any more).

Yeah, no obligation. See you on Github then. :)

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Re: Discussions on the ML

Klaas Freitag-3
In reply to this post by Chris Green
On 21.03.2013 14:06, Chris Green wrote:

Chris,

>
>> It happened to me already that I filed a bug on github, and as it
>> turned out the problem was that the cache in my browser was not
>> cleared, and I had javascript functions from the pre-upgrade version
>> after an upgrade. I felt silly to use the time of a developer
>> unnecessarily. (Although I learned from the experience).

What you describe here is not much of a problem because
a) if its not a bug we sort it out and close it. Even better that its
not a bug. Closing a bug is nice thing to do :)
b) Being-not-so-experienced in something is no problem. No need to feel
stupid or anything. You always can be sure that there are others doing
the same thing (wrong) and
c) the bug tracker is also a kind of documentation resource. One problem
sorted out once stays sorted out for everybody ending up at that problem
later...

The only thing that really poisons the work is unfriendly and demanding
attitude (which we seldomly see here :-)

Well, we're operating in a difficult area, this whole client<->server
stuff is not easy. Rather go and write a poor man's office app if you
like it easy ;-P
Yes, it demands patience from all of us to get stuff sorted. Thanks for
your help on that, I am sure we will get there...


Klaas

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Re: Discussions on the ML

Simon Brereton
In reply to this post by Diederik de Haas
On 21 March 2013 15:11, Diederik de Haas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Thursday 21 March 2013 14:59:45 Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote:
>> Looking quickly through the latest posts (I still have in my mail client),
>> these are examples of discussions which belong here: ...
>
> Thanks for that clear answer, even though it also means this ML is not
> interesting for me (any more).

Yeah, me neither.  And since I won't have a github account just for OC...

How much mail does the announce-list that was announced a few months
go send out?

Simon
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Re: Discussions on the ML

Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
Oh by the way, I thought of something this mailing list is also good for:

Positive feedback! (of course only if stuff works for you)

The reason there’s so much »not working«, »error« and negative stuff on this mailing list is that when something doesn’t work you’re of course angry. But that doesn’t mean that nothing works and everything is crap. In fact when we ask people we get lots of positive feedback and that everything works for them. Of course positive feedback isn’t posted to a mailing list or filed on Github, because when everything works fine there’s no reason to complain.

So if everything works for you, please let us know as well. It’s good to hear some positive stuff from time to time.


Thanks!

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Re: Discussions on the ML

Thomas Tanghus
In reply to this post by Thomas Gries
On Thursday 21 March 2013 15:03:59 Thomas Gries wrote:
> Am 21.03.2013 14:52, schrieb Jan-Christoph Borchardt:
> > Tornóci, Chris, [added: Tom],
> >
> > don’t worry about feeling stupid. File all issues you have on Github,
> > even if you might think it’s not an issue. Other users will/should
> > give their feedback over there also. It’s not just for developers.
>
> +1
> Thank you for this clear statement.

Let me elaborate on that: Please don't use the isue tracker for asking
questions about how to do what, unless it's clearly a usability issue which
should be solved. Use http://forum.owncloud.org/ for that - the users are
generally  very knowledgeable and  helpful. If you don't get an answer there
*then* file an issue.

--
Best regards / Med venlig hilsen

Thomas Tanghus
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Re: Discussions on the ML

Thomas Gries
Am 21.03.2013 16:43, schrieb Thomas Tanghus:
> ...Please don't use the isue tracker for asking
> questions about how to do what, unless it's clearly a usability issue which
> should be solved. Use http://forum.owncloud.org/ for that -
-1

This is clearly "divide et impera"

- mailing list
- forum
- github issue tracker

You should have *one* single point of contact.



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Re: Discussions on the ML

Daniel
In reply to this post by Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4


Well... in my opinion... Owncloud rocks.

 

I've been using it for years now... Owncloud has been responsible for liberating my contacts and calendar from Google, my files from Dropbox and my pictures from Flickr.

 

There have been times when I've come across problems, though the problems I've experienced are far less than the benefits. I've never had an issue with getting support either - if the issue hasn't already been figured out (i.e. Google) then submitting a bug report usually generates a response within a day or two.

 

Keep up the good work!

Daniel

 

 


On Thu, Mar 21 03:59:44 PM Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote:

Oh by the way, I thought of something this mailing list is also good for:

Positive feedback! (of course only if stuff works for you)

The reason there’s so much »not working«, »error« and negative stuff on this mailing list is that when something doesn’t work you’re of course angry. But that doesn’t mean that nothing works and everything is crap. In fact when we ask people we get lots of positive feedback and that everything works for them. Of course positive feedback isn’t posted to a mailing list or filed on Github, because when everything works fine there’s no reason to complain.

So if everything works for you, please let us know as well. It’s good to hear some positive stuff from time to time.


Thanks!



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Re: Discussions on the ML

Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
In reply to this post by Thomas Gries
Back when we only had a mailing list, we really needed a separate issue tracker because issues tracking doesn’t work on mailing lists. The issue tracker we have now is great because it’s connected with the code and easy to work with. And we get less problem reports on the mailing list, which is good, because the mailing list is not suited for problem reports. Old threads get lost and people wonder why their problem is not attended to.

Back when we didn’t have a forum the mailing list was swamped with users asking the same questions over and over again. Now that we have the forum there is a point of reference and users helping users. Code issues bubble up and are referred to us by Mark.

There is a reason why we have all three platforms. The single point of contact is http://owncloud.org




On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Thomas Gries <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 21.03.2013 16:43, schrieb Thomas Tanghus:
> ...Please don't use the isue tracker for asking
> questions about how to do what, unless it's clearly a usability issue which
> should be solved. Use http://forum.owncloud.org/ for that -
-1

This is clearly "divide et impera"

- mailing list
- forum
- github issue tracker

You should have *one* single point of contact.



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