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Jos Poortvliet
Hi guys/girls,

I know there is some work going into collaborative editing. I just bumped into the article below, which might be interersting - as in, it talks about algorithms which help resolve the issues you have when creating a real-time collaboration framework. It's about google's wave - while the product is dead, there are some clever solutions in there which are described in some whitepapers: http://www.waveprotocol.org/whitepapers/operational-transform

Article: http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/03/novell-pulse-and-google-wave.html

Just FYI, not sure if it's very interesting to anyone right now ;-)
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Jos van den Oever
On Wednesday, August 18, 2010 17:24:12 pm Jos Poortvliet wrote:

> I know there is some work going into collaborative editing. I just bumped
> into the article below, which might be interersting - as in, it talks
> about algorithms which help resolve the issues you have when creating a
> real-time collaboration framework. It's about google's wave - while the
> product is dead, there are some clever solutions in there which are
> described in some whitepapers:
> http://www.waveprotocol.org/whitepapers/operational-transform
>
> Article:
> http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/03/novell-pulse-and-google-wave.htm
> l
>
> Just FYI, not sure if it's very interesting to anyone right now ;-)

Hi Jos,

Thanks for the link. This is certainly on our radar, perhaps even using wave
or a similar protocol. I was not aware of Novell Pulse yet. If you know some
people looking at sending ODF over wave, we are certainly interested in that
protocol and would like to have a go at implementing it. Wave on its own is
not enough to do collaborative editing of ODF documents. There needs to be
agreement on how to do it for the ODF file format which is a zip file containing
mostly XML files. The operational transformation algorithm part is a good
candidate for being part of the solution.

Cheers,
Jos

--
Jos van den Oever, software architect
+49 391 25 19 15 53
http://kogmbh.com/legal/

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Jos Poortvliet
On Wednesday 18 August 2010 18:06:20 Jos van den Oever wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 18, 2010 17:24:12 pm Jos Poortvliet wrote:
> > I know there is some work going into collaborative editing. I just bumped
> > into the article below, which might be interersting - as in, it talks
> > about algorithms which help resolve the issues you have when creating a
> > real-time collaboration framework. It's about google's wave - while the
> > product is dead, there are some clever solutions in there which are
> > described in some whitepapers:
> > http://www.waveprotocol.org/whitepapers/operational-transform
> >
> > Article:
> > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/03/novell-pulse-and-google-wave.htm
> > l
> >
> > Just FYI, not sure if it's very interesting to anyone right now ;-)
>
> Hi Jos,
>
> Thanks for the link. This is certainly on our radar, perhaps even using wave
> or a similar protocol. I was not aware of Novell Pulse yet. If you know some
> people looking at sending ODF over wave, we are certainly interested in that
> protocol and would like to have a go at implementing it.

I could see if I can ask the engineers working on this - maybe they do ODF, maybe not... If you guys are interested, I can definately try to find them.

> Wave on its own is
> not enough to do collaborative editing of ODF documents. There needs to be
> agreement on how to do it for the ODF file format which is a zip file containing
> mostly XML files. The operational transformation algorithm part is a good
> candidate for being part of the solution.

YESS, so I deserve my t-shirt!

> Cheers,
> Jos
>
>
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zander@kde.org
In reply to this post by Jos van den Oever
On Wednesday 18. August 2010 18.06.20 Jos van den Oever wrote:
> Thanks for the link. This is certainly on our radar, perhaps even using
> wave  or a similar protocol.

To avoid any communication problems I want to add that the stuff that Pierre
has been working on with the koffice change-tracking and, on top of that, the
collaborative editing is meant to avoid having a central server.
The google wave protocol is specifically meant to *use* a central server and
the concepts its build on have gotten improvements in later research.

While obviously the idea of using something already coded is attractive and
any effort in that direction won't be stopped by me, I think its fair to point
out thats not what the KOffice core peeps set their hearts on.

See the mail on 14-july on both these lists (subject 'Suggestions') for more
info.

--
Thomas Zander

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Jos van den Oever
On Thursday, August 19, 2010 13:09:38 pm zander at kde.org wrote:

> On Wednesday 18. August 2010 18.06.20 Jos van den Oever wrote:
> > Thanks for the link. This is certainly on our radar, perhaps even using
> > wave  or a similar protocol.
>
> To avoid any communication problems I want to add that the stuff that
> Pierre has been working on with the koffice change-tracking and, on top of
> that, the collaborative editing is meant to avoid having a central server.
> The google wave protocol is specifically meant to *use* a central server
> and the concepts its build on have gotten improvements in later research.
>
> While obviously the idea of using something already coded is attractive and
> any effort in that direction won't be stopped by me, I think its fair to
> point out thats not what the KOffice core peeps set their hearts on.
>
> See the mail on 14-july on both these lists (subject 'Suggestions') for
> more info.

Yes and no. The top level wave protocol is indeed tailored to a central
server, although there are actually several layers of servers. Yet, the way
changes are sent between participant through wave's version of operational
transformation could be used even in a p2p setting. I fully agree that p2p
operation should be possible.

The interesting question is: how can one combine ODF with operational
transformation? And, can one combine real-time collaboration with
collaboration with longer delays like in revision control systems?

Cheers,
Jos

--
Jos van den Oever, software architect
+49 391 25 19 15 53
http://kogmbh.com/legal/