howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
13 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Stefan Vollmar
Hello,

it is desirable (for many reasons) to have localisations of user interfaces for as many languages as possible. However, OwnCloud ships with two German versions, one of them quite informal. As our installation is for "official" purposes only, the more formal version is the right choice. We already had a case where somebody (unintentionally) selected the informal setting, then shared a file by link - this could be potentially awkward: you do not see the mail template which is sent to the recipient (and it is not suitable for our purposes).

(1) Is there a simple and clean method to exclude/disable that particular localisation?
(2) Although we employ researchers from all over the world, we know that some localisations will be selected far more often than others - this will simply reflect how many researchers from certain countries we typically have. Can we influence the order of entries in the localisation menu?

Many thanks in advance.

Warm regards,
 Stefan
--
Dr. Stefan Vollmar, Dipl.-Phys.
Head of IT group
Max-Planck-Institut für neurologische Forschung
Gleueler Str. 50, 50931 Köln, Germany
Tel.: +49-221-4726-213  FAX +49-221-4726-298
Tel.: +49-221-478-5713  Mobile: 0160-93874279
E-Mail: [hidden email]   http://www.nf.mpg.de









_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud

smime.p7s (6K) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Christian Reiner
Hello Stefan, hello all,

On Thursday 05 September 2013 09:17:19 Stefan Vollmar wrote:
> it is desirable (for many reasons) to have localisations of user interfaces
> for as many languages as possible. However, OwnCloud ships with two German
> versions, one of them quite informal. As our installation is for "official"
> purposes only, the more formal version is the right choice. We already had
> a case where somebody (unintentionally) selected the informal setting, then
> shared a file by link - this could be potentially awkward: you do not see
> the mail template which is sent to the recipient (and it is not suitable
> for our purposes).

actually in my eyes this shows up a more general problem. Your approach to
solve your issue at hand by disabling a certain localization is the wrong one
and steps short in my eyes:

The templates chosen for outgoing messages should not depend on the session
language chosen by the user at all! Those are two completely separate things!
Imagine a foreign member of your company, say a russian speaking colleague. He
intuitively would use the russian localization of owncloud if available. And
this certainly totally makes sense, since this is what localizations are there
for. But most likely you do not want outgoing messages to your customers to be
in russian language, just because the user initiating the message uses a
russian localization!
It is a very typical pattern in software suites that localizations of the user
session and of persistent content being generated must be independent. This is
currently not the case, apparently.
So in my eyes the correct solution to your problem would be to decouple these
localization use cases instead of disabling a random localization set.

Christian Reiner (arkascha)
_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4

And next to what Christian mentions, I think we should actually get rid of the German informal translation. Mostly we try to avoid using Du/Sie altogether, and the cases where we need it do not really warrant maintaining a whole different translation. Including all the confusion which is which.

Frank, Thomas, what do you think?

On Sep 5, 2013 10:18 AM, "Christian Reiner" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Stefan, hello all,

On Thursday 05 September 2013 09:17:19 Stefan Vollmar wrote:
> it is desirable (for many reasons) to have localisations of user interfaces
> for as many languages as possible. However, OwnCloud ships with two German
> versions, one of them quite informal. As our installation is for "official"
> purposes only, the more formal version is the right choice. We already had
> a case where somebody (unintentionally) selected the informal setting, then
> shared a file by link - this could be potentially awkward: you do not see
> the mail template which is sent to the recipient (and it is not suitable
> for our purposes).

actually in my eyes this shows up a more general problem. Your approach to
solve your issue at hand by disabling a certain localization is the wrong one
and steps short in my eyes:

The templates chosen for outgoing messages should not depend on the session
language chosen by the user at all! Those are two completely separate things!
Imagine a foreign member of your company, say a russian speaking colleague. He
intuitively would use the russian localization of owncloud if available. And
this certainly totally makes sense, since this is what localizations are there
for. But most likely you do not want outgoing messages to your customers to be
in russian language, just because the user initiating the message uses a
russian localization!
It is a very typical pattern in software suites that localizations of the user
session and of persistent content being generated must be independent. This is
currently not the case, apparently.
So in my eyes the correct solution to your problem would be to decouple these
localization use cases instead of disabling a random localization set.

Christian Reiner (arkascha)
_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud

_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Mark Ziegler
Am 05.09.2013 10:45, schrieb Jan-Christoph Borchardt:
>
> And next to what Christian mentions, I think we should actually get
> rid of the German informal translation. Mostly we try to avoid using
> Du/Sie altogether, and the cases where we need it do not really
> warrant maintaining a whole different translation. Including all the
> confusion which is which.
>
> Frank, Thomas, what do you think?
>

jm2c: please do not remove informal translation. owncloud is used in
private environments as well. IMHO informal language is much more
friendly for kids and casual groups. If there is a need for maintaining
informal german translation I am willing to spent some time.

Cheers,
Mark
_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Frank Karlitschek-3
In reply to this post by Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4




On 05.09.2013, at 04:45, Jan-Christoph Borchardt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And next to what Christian mentions, I think we should actually get rid of the German informal translation. Mostly we try to avoid using Du/Sie altogether, and the cases where we need it do not really warrant maintaining a whole different translation. Including all the confusion which is which.
>
> Frank, Thomas, what do you think?

Agreed.


Frank



> On Sep 5, 2013 10:18 AM, "Christian Reiner" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello Stefan, hello all,
>
> On Thursday 05 September 2013 09:17:19 Stefan Vollmar wrote:
> > it is desirable (for many reasons) to have localisations of user interfaces
> > for as many languages as possible. However, OwnCloud ships with two German
> > versions, one of them quite informal. As our installation is for "official"
> > purposes only, the more formal version is the right choice. We already had
> > a case where somebody (unintentionally) selected the informal setting, then
> > shared a file by link - this could be potentially awkward: you do not see
> > the mail template which is sent to the recipient (and it is not suitable
> > for our purposes).
>
> actually in my eyes this shows up a more general problem. Your approach to
> solve your issue at hand by disabling a certain localization is the wrong one
> and steps short in my eyes:
>
> The templates chosen for outgoing messages should not depend on the session
> language chosen by the user at all! Those are two completely separate things!
> Imagine a foreign member of your company, say a russian speaking colleague. He
> intuitively would use the russian localization of owncloud if available. And
> this certainly totally makes sense, since this is what localizations are there
> for. But most likely you do not want outgoing messages to your customers to be
> in russian language, just because the user initiating the message uses a
> russian localization!
> It is a very typical pattern in software suites that localizations of the user
> session and of persistent content being generated must be independent. This is
> currently not the case, apparently.
> So in my eyes the correct solution to your problem would be to decouple these
> localization use cases instead of disabling a random localization set.
>
> Christian Reiner (arkascha)
> _______________________________________________
> Owncloud mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud

_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Christian Reiner
In reply to this post by Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
Hi all,

On Thursday 05 September 2013 10:45:03 Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote:
> And next to what Christian mentions, I think we should actually get rid of
> the German informal translation. Mostly we try to avoid using Du/Sie
> altogether, and the cases where we need it do not really warrant
> maintaining a whole different translation. Including all the confusion
> which is which.

sorry, I disagree. Two reasons:

1.) localization is there to make using software more user friendly and to
adapt the usage experience to the users expectations and needs.
Limiting that effort artificially to work around secondary issues like clear
distinction of the available options is a sad thing: it means stopping half
way. Why?
There are two different expectations, both are justified. Serve them.

2.) the often seen workaround to prevent "having to" support two german
localizations, avoiding direct addressing of the user, is something
intuitively done by many developers and designers. Often it works out fine,
actually gives the user experience some mature touch.
However there are situations where this approach leads to unbearable
linguistic constructions. Such artificial usage of a language ruin the user
experience by crippling exactly the main point behind why localization is done
in the first place: enhancement by offering a natural and intuitive
interaction. Why?

I'd say: Don't!

Christian Reiner (arkascha)
_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Thomas Müller
In reply to this post by Stefan Vollmar
Well looks like there are users preferring the informal German translation. 
Let's keep it then - there is no additional effort in maintaining two German translations because the teams on transifex are actually pretty big and they react pretty fast in new strings. 

Tom

_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Thomas Müller
In reply to this post by Stefan Vollmar
True Story, Christian - thanks for the pointer.

Can I ask you to open an issue on github.com about separation of localization? 

We need to address this proper

Thanks

Tom



-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Christian Reiner <[hidden email]>
Datum:
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Owncloud] howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu


Hello Stefan, hello all,

On Thursday 05 September 2013 09:17:19 Stefan Vollmar wrote:
> it is desirable (for many reasons) to have localisations of user interfaces
> for as many languages as possible. However, OwnCloud ships with two German
> versions, one of them quite informal. As our installation is for "official"
> purposes only, the more formal version is the right choice. We already had
> a case where somebody (unintentionally) selected the informal setting, then
> shared a file by link - this could be potentially awkward: you do not see
> the mail template which is sent to the recipient (and it is not suitable
> for our purposes).

actually in my eyes this shows up a more general problem. Your approach to
solve your issue at hand by disabling a certain localization is the wrong one
and steps short in my eyes:

The templates chosen for outgoing messages should not depend on the session
language chosen by the user at all! Those are two completely separate things!
Imagine a foreign member of your company, say a russian speaking colleague. He
intuitively would use the russian localization of owncloud if available. And
this certainly totally makes sense, since this is what localizations are there
for. But most likely you do not want outgoing messages to your customers to be
in russian language, just because the user initiating the message uses a
russian localization!
It is a very typical pattern in software suites that localizations of the user
session and of persistent content being generated must be independent. This is
currently not the case, apparently.
So in my eyes the correct solution to your problem would be to decouple these
localization use cases instead of disabling a random localization set.

Christian Reiner (arkascha)
_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud

_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Thomas Müller
In reply to this post by Stefan Vollmar
Hey

Certain languages can be removed by deleting the corresponding files from the file system. 
The informal German translation is stored in de.php

A simple find/grep/rm should help.
Remember to rerun this after update.

The order in the language drop down can be influenced by manipulating the code but I'd advise against this as the can be painful after update.

Can I ask you to open an issue on github.com / owncloud / core ?

We need to proper address this. 

Thanks

Tom



-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: Stefan Vollmar <[hidden email]>
Datum:
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: [Owncloud] howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu


Hello,

it is desirable (for many reasons) to have localisations of user interfaces for as many languages as possible. However, OwnCloud ships with two German versions, one of them quite informal. As our installation is for "official" purposes only, the more formal version is the right choice. We already had a case where somebody (unintentionally) selected the informal setting, then shared a file by link - this could be potentially awkward: you do not see the mail template which is sent to the recipient (and it is not suitable for our purposes).

(1) Is there a simple and clean method to exclude/disable that particular localisation?
(2) Although we employ researchers from all over the world, we know that some localisations will be selected far more often than others - this will simply reflect how many researchers from certain countries we typically have. Can we influence the order of entries in the localisation menu?

Many thanks in advance.

Warm regards,
Stefan
--
Dr. Stefan Vollmar, Dipl.-Phys.
Head of IT group
Max-Planck-Institut für neurologische Forschung
Gleueler Str. 50, 50931 Köln, Germany
Tel.: +49-221-4726-213  FAX +49-221-4726-298
Tel.: +49-221-478-5713  Mobile: 0160-93874279
E-Mail: [hidden email]   http://www.nf.mpg.de









_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud

_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Christian Reiner
In reply to this post by Thomas Müller
On Friday 06 September 2013 07:29:01 Thomas Müller wrote:
> True Story, Christian - thanks for the pointer.
>
> Can I ask you to open an issue on github.com about separation of
> localization?

Done, Issue 4742 in oc-core:
https://github.com/owncloud/core/issues/4742
_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Stefan Vollmar
In reply to this post by Thomas Müller
Dear Thomas,

On 06.09.2013, at 07:32, Thomas Müller wrote:

> Certain languages can be removed by deleting the corresponding files from the file system.
> The informal German translation is stored in de.php
> A simple find/grep/rm should help.
> Remember to rerun this after update.

thanks, I had already found the file but hesistated about deleting/modifying it as I was worried that this is more "pragmatic" than a "clean" solution. So deleting translation files is safe as all translation/string replacement, building of localisation menus etc is fully dynamic? No caching, generation of index files, etc?

> The order in the language drop down can be influenced by manipulating the code but I'd advise against this as the can be painful after update.

We will keep that in mind (or try to automate it). But how is the order determined?

Warm regards,
 Stefan

>
> Can I ask you to open an issue on github.com / owncloud / core ?
>
> We need to proper address this.
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom
>
>
>
> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Stefan Vollmar <[hidden email]>
> Datum:
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: [Owncloud] howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu
>
>
> Hello,
>
> it is desirable (for many reasons) to have localisations of user interfaces for as many languages as possible. However, OwnCloud ships with two German versions, one of them quite informal. As our installation is for "official" purposes only, the more formal version is the right choice. We already had a case where somebody (unintentionally) selected the informal setting, then shared a file by link - this could be potentially awkward: you do not see the mail template which is sent to the recipient (and it is not suitable for our purposes).
>
> (1) Is there a simple and clean method to exclude/disable that particular localisation?
> (2) Although we employ researchers from all over the world, we know that some localisations will be selected far more often than others - this will simply reflect how many researchers from certain countries we typically have. Can we influence the order of entries in the localisation menu?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Warm regards,
> Stefan
> --
> Dr. Stefan Vollmar, Dipl.-Phys.
> Head of IT group
> Max-Planck-Institut für neurologische Forschung
> Gleueler Str. 50, 50931 Köln, Germany
> Tel.: +49-221-4726-213  FAX +49-221-4726-298
> Tel.: +49-221-478-5713  Mobile: 0160-93874279
> E-Mail: [hidden email]   http://www.nf.mpg.de
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owncloud mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
> _______________________________________________
> Owncloud mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
--
Dr. Stefan Vollmar, Dipl.-Phys.
Head of IT group
Max-Planck-Institut für neurologische Forschung
Gleueler Str. 50, 50931 Köln, Germany
Tel.: +49-221-4726-213  FAX +49-221-4726-298
Tel.: +49-221-478-5713  Mobile: 0160-93874279
E-Mail: [hidden email]   http://www.nf.mpg.de









_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud

smime.p7s (6K) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Stefan Vollmar
In reply to this post by Thomas Müller
Dear Thomas,
dear Christian,

On 06.09.2013, at 07:29, Thomas Müller wrote:

> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
> Von: Christian Reiner <[hidden email]>
> Datum:
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [Owncloud] howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu
>
>
> Hello Stefan, hello all,
>
> On Thursday 05 September 2013 09:17:19 Stefan Vollmar wrote:
> > it is desirable (for many reasons) to have localisations of user interfaces
> > for as many languages as possible. However, OwnCloud ships with two German
> > versions, one of them quite informal. As our installation is for "official"
> > purposes only, the more formal version is the right choice. We already had
> > a case where somebody (unintentionally) selected the informal setting, then
> > shared a file by link - this could be potentially awkward: you do not see
> > the mail template which is sent to the recipient (and it is not suitable
> > for our purposes).
>
> actually in my eyes this shows up a more general problem. Your approach to
> solve your issue at hand by disabling a certain localization is the wrong one
> and steps short in my eyes:

> The templates chosen for outgoing messages should not depend on the session
> language chosen by the user at all! Those are two completely separate things!
...

I agree - the outgoing messages should not depend on the session language and this a feature definitely needed for larger installations in an international environment.

However, I still feel the need to exclude the informal German translation from our installation - while this is indeed a nice option in certain settings (you should keep it in OwnCloud), it is not appropriate in an "enterprise context". As long as cleanly deleting/choosing translation versions is simple, I do not mind at all doing it manually.

Warm regards,
 Stefan
--
Dr. Stefan Vollmar, Dipl.-Phys.
Head of IT group
Max-Planck-Institut für neurologische Forschung
Gleueler Str. 50, 50931 Köln, Germany
Tel.: +49-221-4726-213  FAX +49-221-4726-298
Tel.: +49-221-478-5713  Mobile: 0160-93874279
E-Mail: [hidden email]   http://www.nf.mpg.de









_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud

smime.p7s (6K) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: howto exclude translation, order of entries in localisation menu

Jan-Christoph Borchardt-4
In reply to this post by Stefan Vollmar
Stefan, about the order: Kondou worked on the custom langue order,
which is sorted similarly to how iOS sorts languages (by usage +
target group I suppose). Kondou, where is that order determined, so
that Stefan can customize it?

(And no, the order should not be specifically customizable other than
when changing the source code itself.)

On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:19 AM, Stefan Vollmar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear Thomas,
>
> On 06.09.2013, at 07:32, Thomas Müller wrote:
>
>> Certain languages can be removed by deleting the corresponding files from the file system.
>> The informal German translation is stored in de.php
>> A simple find/grep/rm should help.
>> Remember to rerun this after update.
>
> thanks, I had already found the file but hesistated about deleting/modifying it as I was worried that this is more "pragmatic" than a "clean" solution. So deleting translation files is safe as all translation/string replacement, building of localisation menus etc is fully dynamic? No caching, generation of index files, etc?
>
>> The order in the language drop down can be influenced by manipulating the code but I'd advise against this as the can be painful after update.
>
> We will keep that in mind (or try to automate it). But how is the order determined?
>
> Warm regards,
>  Stefan
>
>>
>> Can I ask you to open an issue on github.com / owncloud / core ?
>>
>> We need to proper address this.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
>> Von: Stefan Vollmar <[hidden email]>
>> Datum:
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: [Owncloud] howto exclude translation,        order of entries in localisation menu
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> it is desirable (for many reasons) to have localisations of user interfaces for as many languages as possible. However, OwnCloud ships with two German versions, one of them quite informal. As our installation is for "official" purposes only, the more formal version is the right choice. We already had a case where somebody (unintentionally) selected the informal setting, then shared a file by link - this could be potentially awkward: you do not see the mail template which is sent to the recipient (and it is not suitable for our purposes).
>>
>> (1) Is there a simple and clean method to exclude/disable that particular localisation?
>> (2) Although we employ researchers from all over the world, we know that some localisations will be selected far more often than others - this will simply reflect how many researchers from certain countries we typically have. Can we influence the order of entries in the localisation menu?
>>
>> Many thanks in advance.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>> Stefan
>> --
>> Dr. Stefan Vollmar, Dipl.-Phys.
>> Head of IT group
>> Max-Planck-Institut für neurologische Forschung
>> Gleueler Str. 50, 50931 Köln, Germany
>> Tel.: +49-221-4726-213  FAX +49-221-4726-298
>> Tel.: +49-221-478-5713  Mobile: 0160-93874279
>> E-Mail: [hidden email]   http://www.nf.mpg.de
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owncloud mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
>> _______________________________________________
>> Owncloud mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
>
> --
> Dr. Stefan Vollmar, Dipl.-Phys.
> Head of IT group
> Max-Planck-Institut für neurologische Forschung
> Gleueler Str. 50, 50931 Köln, Germany
> Tel.: +49-221-4726-213  FAX +49-221-4726-298
> Tel.: +49-221-478-5713  Mobile: 0160-93874279
> E-Mail: [hidden email]   http://www.nf.mpg.de
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Owncloud mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud
>
_______________________________________________
Owncloud mailing list
[hidden email]
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/owncloud